Author Topic: Ideas worth spreading  (Read 11292 times)

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Offline Kekn

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2014, 12:09:29 PM »
EDIT: Thanks for the read, Gavin. I was recently suggested I started working on my leadership abilities, so that eventually I would be able to take up such a position within the company I work for. This made me think about why I should even think to go in that direction. Very useful :)

« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 12:15:52 PM by Kekn »

Offline Ivarr

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2014, 01:16:56 PM »
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Offline Aeronwen

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2014, 02:59:46 PM »


This video is part of the American Enterprise Institute a prominent think tank associated with American neoconservatism. As well being against equality for women they deny global warming and campaign against affordable heathcare ^^

Of the 16 facts given in the Verizon video only 2 are attacked and Christina Hoff Sommer fails to mention the facts she cannot attack.  There are no links given to where CHS obtained the ‘facts’ cited here.

Confidence drop: CHS says the information comes from an info graphic - she spits out this word as if infographics are inherently untrue, this is the infographic – it cites all its sources, something else not mentioned by CHS, in fact she says no sources are offered, which is simply and demonstrably untrue.

66% of 4th grade girls report they like science and math but only 18% of those taking engineering majors are female:  Basically CHS accepts that this is true but claims it is not important as we now have women taking more than 50% of biology degrees.  Can you explain that logic Ivarr?

She also says that these statistics come from the ‘feminist blog jezebel’ but fails to mention the other cited source NCWIT who cite these references
 
Quote
College Board (2012). AP Exam Grades Summary Reports for 2006-2011; Intel ISEF Participation Statistics (unpublished); U.S. Department of Education (2011). National Center for Education Statistics, Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System; U.S. Department of Labor (2010a). Current Population Survey, Detailed Occupations by Sex and Race. Bureau of Labor Statistics; U.S. Department of Labor (2010b). Occupational Projections 2010-2020. Bureau of Labor Statistics; Wilson, C., Sudol, L.A., Stephenson, C., Stehlik, M. (2010). Running on empty: The failure to teach K-12 computer science in the digital age. Association for Computing Machinery and Computer Science Teachers Association.

You might like to look at this research
http://www.socwomen.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/fact_12-2007-stem.pdf
and this famous Yale study showing that identical applications for a science post were more likely to get accepted with obviously male names than obviously female names.
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/421746.article

CHS cherry picks moments in the video to set up a straw man interpretation that she can then shoot down with unattributed ‘facts’.  Really it is not like you to post such unadulterated rubbish.  If you want to research gender bias in the sciences there are plenty of interesting research studies available.

This video is clearly biased, misleading, manipulative propaganda.  As CGHS says – Check your facts!


12:39 - [IG] Lisen: wheres all the IG's?
12:39 - [IG] Aeronwen: no idea - out having lives?
12:39 - [IG] Lisen: unlikely but sure

11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: hahaha I can try
11:53 - [IG] Lisen: Im pretty sure you will fail but that is something I like about you!
11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: !!

Offline Ivarr

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2014, 05:46:25 PM »
Really it is not like you to post such unadulterated rubbish.
You got me, Aero! I just do it from time to time by following an example - it's not the first time. I thought it would be more subtle than openly challenging each video in prolonged argues. I think we need more balance. But since you called me out, I have to respond and explain why.

The reality of things is that I'm tired of the recurring scenario of me sitting down at the PC in the evening to read my favourite online community's forum and find posts and videos about rape culture, which words are not OK with females, how privileged I am, and that women need be empowered.

Yes, I'm male, but I'm not going to rape anyone - honest! Who do you think needs campaigns where celebrities remind you that rape is bad and that you should not do it? Anyone in IG? People who commit acts of violence like rape are not right in the head and I seriously doubt Obama telling them not to do it will help.

Then the campaigns about banning certain words... ridiculous. Someone was called something and it stopped their career? Come on. Perhaps they were called bossy? I'm not saying people should be loosely called bossy, except when they are bossy, but if you quit an important position in your career because you were called bossy then you probably were not fit for it. It's a personal opinion and I do not think it propagates hostile work environment; I think it applies to everyone. I have to be really defensive here about what I say because it can easily be interpreted as a radical view I do not wish to communicate.

I'm not buying that empowerment thing either. It would assume women are weak and need help to gain power. I see them having the same opportunities as me. They are as "powerful" as I am.

I also have other issues with all of this. Such as banning people for sexual harassment where for the legitimacy of the act a workplace etiquette is brought up that considers eye-contact to be sexual harassment. Of course that bit wasn't quoted from the document... and we forgot Battlegrounds is not a workplace. And minor things like stuff in the forum parts where link to music we listen to: it was a cartoon music video about girls being discriminated by denying them education. Good intentions but I doubt you really listen to the music. It also had goofy Middle-Eastern men playing with explosives in the woods... talk about stereotypes. I'm not offended by the menstruation jokes but try to imagine I me posting stuff about guys jizzing in their sheets.

I'm all for both men and women leading lives and career paths they care for. Aero, you have known me for a while now. Have I ever even hinted that women are worse at something than men? Have you heard me using a gender based insult? I don't think I have acted in a sexist way but you never know, so tell me.

I do not deny that there is sexism against women. There's also sexism against men. These are serious issues and need to be addressed but I do not think you can reach equality of sexes by focusing solely on the problems of one sex.

If you want to research gender bias in the sciences there are plenty of interesting research studies available.

This video is clearly biased, misleading, manipulative propaganda.  As CGHS says – Check your facts!
Yes, there are even organisations are working on getting females to sciences. One of the sources of the graph thingy was from a paper from one of such organisations. They had the analysis and the recruitment form on the same paper. Again, not attacking it, I just found it interesting.

Before I knew you, Aero, I didn't think much about gender biases and things like that. They taught us some about it at school but that was practically it. Because of you I have read various papers on the matter and at first I thought it's cool that you are just a strong woman stepping up for your rights. Then I learned it's all not that clear. It goes both ways and more often than not men get to be blamed for women's problems. You know, with their privileges and keeping up the patriarchy. I have also read a lot of angry and sexist bullshit produced by feminists, so I guess thanks for opening my eyes.

TLTR: Ivarr is tired of seeing feminist propaganda on IG forums.

Here's an idea worth spreading: stop vilifying men.
  • Ivarr Ivarr

Offline Mørkravn

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2014, 06:01:08 PM »
If you want to research gender bias in the sciences there are plenty of interesting research studies available.

Any non-feminist bias ones? I.e. made by actual researchers, not by some feminist organizations.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 06:13:03 PM by Mørkravn »

Offline Aeronwen

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2014, 09:23:49 PM »

Here's an idea worth spreading: stop vilifying men.

feminisn is the principle that people are equal regardless of gender - why do you equate that with vilifying men? 

Joss wheden doesn’t like ‘feminism’ either did you listen to this?



Yes, I'm male, but I'm not going to rape anyone – honest
That’s not the problem , the problem is do you care that some men do? Will you do any small thing  to prevent it? Because what you are saying here is ‘no’.

‘I don’t plan to rape anyone’ is a subset of the ‘not all men’ argument which has frequently been comprehensively debunked
Try this:
http://time.com/79357/not-all-men-a-brief-history-of-every-dudes-favorite-argument/

that’s probably the limit of your attention span on this this topic so for now I will ignore the rest of you rant which basically says ‘the patriarchy is working just fine for me so I can ignore the people it abuses’.

if you have a few minutes more think n this...

« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 09:29:02 PM by Aeronwen »


12:39 - [IG] Lisen: wheres all the IG's?
12:39 - [IG] Aeronwen: no idea - out having lives?
12:39 - [IG] Lisen: unlikely but sure

11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: hahaha I can try
11:53 - [IG] Lisen: Im pretty sure you will fail but that is something I like about you!
11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: !!

Offline Aeronwen

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2014, 09:46:52 PM »
If you want to research gender bias in the sciences there are plenty of interesting research studies available.

Any non-feminist bias ones? I.e. made by actual researchers, not by some feminist organizations.

how about:
National Centre for education statistics, US dept of education

Harvard Business Review

Scholastic

Psychology Today

University of Illinois

New Outlooks in Science and Engineering, backed by the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council

Spoiler
these are some of the references in the video that Ivarrs video was villifying

also if you understand that feminist = equality do you understand your question reads...
Quote
Any non-equality bias ones? I.e. made by actual researchers, not by some equality organizations.

in other words 'any with a patriarchal bias?'

How about this from Science daily reporting a study from Colunbia Business School
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 10:13:11 PM by Aeronwen »


12:39 - [IG] Lisen: wheres all the IG's?
12:39 - [IG] Aeronwen: no idea - out having lives?
12:39 - [IG] Lisen: unlikely but sure

11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: hahaha I can try
11:53 - [IG] Lisen: Im pretty sure you will fail but that is something I like about you!
11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: !!

Offline Mørkravn

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2014, 11:24:58 PM »
also if you understand that feminist = equality do you understand your question reads...

in other words 'any with a patriarchal bias?'

No, not "patriarchal bias", just scientific research without any bias at all.

Feminism can't be for equality if it focuses mostly on one of the genders. :smh:

And, oh my, you are one of feminist conspirologists. "Patriarchy"... oooook. I think, I'll not continue this discussion any further, it's just silly.

Offline Aeronwen

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2014, 11:38:01 PM »
also if you understand that feminist = equality do you understand your question reads...

in other words 'any with a patriarchal bias?'

No, not "patriarchal bias", just scientific research without any bias at all.

Feminism can't be for equality if it focuses mostly on one of the genders. :smh:

And, oh my, you are one of feminist conspirologists. "Patriarchy"... oooook. I think, I'll not continue this discussion any further, it's just silly.

in a traditionally and currently biased world though it is difficult to be aware of gender bias, in fact 'scientific research' is (and had been) normally gender biased unless a particular effort is made to notice it and counter it. 

For example
http://jrs.sagepub.com/content/100/1/2.full

what do you mean 'feminism cant be for equality if it focuses on one of the genders?'  What makes you think feminism focuses on one of the genders?  and which gender is it?

I am not sure what you understand by patriarchy and why you take that be a sign of 'feminist conspiriology' whatever that is.  Did you actually read any of the links or listen to any of the videos in the posts above?


Try this one

« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 11:41:40 PM by Aeronwen »


12:39 - [IG] Lisen: wheres all the IG's?
12:39 - [IG] Aeronwen: no idea - out having lives?
12:39 - [IG] Lisen: unlikely but sure

11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: hahaha I can try
11:53 - [IG] Lisen: Im pretty sure you will fail but that is something I like about you!
11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: !!

Offline crazyboy11

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2014, 12:47:18 AM »
Yes, I'm male, but I'm not going to rape anyone – honest
That’s not the problem , the problem is do you care that some men do? Will you do any small thing  to prevent it? Because what you are saying here is ‘no’.

What exactly do you expect us to do about it?

I'm pretty sure everyone in IG will agree that rape is bad, in fact most governments also agree that rape is bad. Hence why it is illegal. There are professional organisations set up to deal with illegal activities e.g. The Police.

Offline Aeronwen

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2014, 12:57:07 AM »
Yes, I'm male, but I'm not going to rape anyone – honest
That’s not the problem , the problem is do you care that some men do? Will you do any small thing  to prevent it? Because what you are saying here is ‘no’.

What exactly do you expect us to do about it?

I'm pretty sure everyone in IG will agree that rape is bad, in fact most governments also agree that rape is bad. Hence why it is illegal. There are professional organisations set up to deal with illegal activities e.g. The Police.

well this started with Ivarr talking about rape culture.  As you don;t seem to know rape culture is when women are routinley dismissed, belittled, objectified and dehumanised so it becomes a non issue for some men to treat them women (and what they regard a 'feminised men') as legitimate targets for violence.

What you can do about it is simply say 'that's not OK' when you hear or see a friend or stranger behaving in a dismissive, objectifying etc way toards a women.

The video I posted earlier put it very clearly



12:39 - [IG] Lisen: wheres all the IG's?
12:39 - [IG] Aeronwen: no idea - out having lives?
12:39 - [IG] Lisen: unlikely but sure

11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: hahaha I can try
11:53 - [IG] Lisen: Im pretty sure you will fail but that is something I like about you!
11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: !!

Offline crazyboy11

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2014, 04:50:40 PM »
Ah yes he does explain as you say, how men can help alleviate the issue of gender equality. I dismissed his video originally and opted to watch the video of the girl (Laci Green) instead. She makes some good points  :blush:.

What is your opinion of this blog Aero?
http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/

Offline Aeronwen

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2014, 04:57:19 PM »
Ah yes he does explain as you say, how men can help alleviate the issue of gender equality. I dismissed his video originally and opted to watch the video of the girl (Laci Green) instead. She makes some good points  :blush:.

What is your opinion of this blog Aero?
http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/

whats yours?

I would say none of those people have yet understood what feminism is.


12:39 - [IG] Lisen: wheres all the IG's?
12:39 - [IG] Aeronwen: no idea - out having lives?
12:39 - [IG] Lisen: unlikely but sure

11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: hahaha I can try
11:53 - [IG] Lisen: Im pretty sure you will fail but that is something I like about you!
11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: !!

Offline crazyboy11

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2014, 05:31:51 PM »
I like to think it's encouraging. Not because there is no inequality, of course there is. But the women posting on the blog must work with, or socialise with people who are at least gender neutral in their actions and words. Maybe they don't encourage it yet, but they must not be sexist otherwise the women wouldn't be standing against feminists (forgive me for generalising so I could elaborate a little).

Offline Aeronwen

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Re: Ideas worth spreading
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2014, 10:49:06 PM »
I like to think it's encouraging. Not because there is no inequality, of course there is. But the women posting on the blog must work with, or socialise with people who are at least gender neutral in their actions and words. Maybe they don't encourage it yet, but they must not be sexist otherwise the women wouldn't be standing against feminists (forgive me for generalising so I could elaborate a little).

I can only assume you have not read the messages on that page or still dont get that feminism is simply about treating all people as people.


12:39 - [IG] Lisen: wheres all the IG's?
12:39 - [IG] Aeronwen: no idea - out having lives?
12:39 - [IG] Lisen: unlikely but sure

11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: hahaha I can try
11:53 - [IG] Lisen: Im pretty sure you will fail but that is something I like about you!
11:53 - [IG] Aeronwen: !!