Author Topic: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles  (Read 4899 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline OurGloriousLeader

  • Posts: 40
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2016, 01:29:20 PM »
Bumping this issue, worse than ever right now.

Instant flag spawns imo, reduce the time to full raise! Try it!

Offline volcom

  • Posts: 120
  • Class: Ranger
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2016, 07:50:47 PM »
Raising this topic again.

A good counter would be to implement the 15 maps displayed at your feet by our lovely contributers of the warband community.

Most of them have forced fighting points cancelling out anyone who wants to go in cirkles. This would solve a lot of current issues and make IG_Battlegrounds truelly a 50/50 IGN(Nero).

Offline AZAN

  • Posts: 100
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2016, 10:21:29 AM »
Making maps which force engagements by only having a single route might work to force the infantry to fight but it will make things much less interesting for the other classes. Cav need flanking routes to be effective and rangers will be 100% safe behind their team with a corridor style map.

As soon as you have a map which isn't a corridor, the circling will begin, even with decent choke points. At the moment the very idea of going directly at an opponent is impossible for many players. I watch them continue running away from the enemy groups despite having numerical advantage.

I think placing the flag down straight away and changing the capture time (as mentioned by OGL) is a good idea. It will anchor the fight. While I know there have been concerns raised about IG being different from competitive, consider that it is already different and plays nothing like competitive. You will never have public players sit around for 90 seconds waiting for a flag, just give it to them immediately. In many respects this is MORE comparable to competitive play since 95% of engagements occur after the flag spawns.

Make the capture time 120 seconds instead of 50, give a small regular gold reward for anyone on the flag, say 20 gold every 10 seconds. That bit is important since people will not want to do the necessary job of holding it without a reward. At that level it also is unlikely to significantly change the amount of gold available, it's equivalent to a player getting a single kill if they stay on the flag the whole time.

Offline Scar

  • External Admin
  • Posts: 95
  • Class: None
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2016, 02:21:18 PM »
The problem is that infantry don't have a reason to run at the opponent straight away. If you play for kills you will get more by just trying to catch stragglers, if you play to survive surely going with the big ball is better than running in on your own. Playing for round wins barely plays a role at the moment, which is why spawning the flag straight away would be a good change - it would most likely also increase the benefit you get from playing on IGB, since you will be playing in scenarios similar to the ones that occur in matches, just with more numbers.

Offline Oliveran

  • Regular Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3227
  • Class: Infantry
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2016, 03:47:20 PM »
It promotes and emphasises a lot of camping, with instantly spawning flag. Imagine Reveral Village church flag, one team camps windmill + rocks, other camps church. How much better does it make the server? It's not like infantry suddenly can "stand on flag and get money", instead they won't even be able to stand on flag. How does this solve the issue? It does not, as most people would rather be archer and shoot on flag, or cav and couch peolpe in the back while they're trying to shoot on flag.



One idea that would help with this would be to change the class limits slightly (removing them would make instantly spawning flag even worse), so that more people has to play inf (20% would be 50 * 0.2, so 10 infantries minimum), but it doesn't solve the above issue.


Please teach me how to block :c

Offline AZAN

  • Posts: 100
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2016, 04:20:35 PM »
If we take that particular scenario you highlight, I would expect a clump of archers at church and a clump of archers at windmill, sure.

But what's wrong with that? That's already an improvement. Archers are able to stand in a place and shoot! Amazing, unheard of on current IG battlegrounds. Infantry are survivalists and greedy so they might try to go for flag but if they're getting shot there they probably won't stay. Most likely I would expect them either to camp with the rangers or start trying to push the flank looking for stragglers. Rangers also would only stay where they are if they are getting kills, if they aren't getting any then they will move.

It creates a scenario where there are known positions and teams hold ground. Rather than the terrible situation we have now which can only be described as 'run or die'. You can now choose how to approach the problem, charging the rangers or flanking or camping. Also unlike old camping scenarios, you would still need to be in view of the flag for it to have any meaning. No hiding on the wall on nord town, that won't help at all, so instead teams would need to hold positions near but not on the flag which makes it a lot easier to push them.

But lets take some other situations as well, for instance sandi boush, what do you think will happen on those flags? My guess is we will have some huge fights every round, it will be great and let people make choices once again about how to approach the attack/defence of positions.

EDIT: At the very least just set the flag spawn time to 30 seconds or something (so it waits for everyone to spawn), just to see what would happen and get us some data on it. Forget any other changes or anything for now, just do it scientifically and change that one thing for a couple of days and lets find out.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 04:30:59 PM by AZAN »

Offline Osiris

  • Posts: 1243
  • Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
  • Class: Infantry
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2016, 04:44:02 PM »
I would be in favour of 30 second flag spawn and much longer raise time, there is this problem in most mods and none have solved it perfectly (hell crpg nerfed cav and Archers hard and gave inf +1-7 shield skill for standing in a shield wall and still people run around ). I think having an objective that isn't just kill and live works best.


I don't know if it's possible here but in mods you have kills and points. You get points for kills, assists and standing on flag, atm people only judge round impact by kills which makes them not want to fight and die early.

Offline AZAN

  • Posts: 100
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2016, 04:58:39 PM »
It's possible to make a battle equivalent mode using conquest, I did it before when I created my Conquest: Supremacy mod. That's the only way to get score in the game.

You would be able to make the mode round based and have the flags spawn and raise, but you would lose the announcements I think.

Offline ImB_Smiley

  • Posts: 29
  • Class: Ranger
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2016, 05:42:01 PM »
why not make it so if you spawn , you are immortal or something for like 5/8 seconds?
when you download a map for example, then you just managed to spawn in , get couched by cav and have to wait till round ends, wich takes so long on IGB because they keep running away from eachother..  also you can see teamkillers easier, they will try to kill people but they are immortal :P then you can prepare to block or make kick poll in those seconds :)

Offline ryozu

  • Forum Moderator
  • Regular Member
  • *
  • Posts: 821
  • Class: None
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2016, 06:17:42 PM »
A flag spawning doesn't mean people will try to capture it.  Just consider siege as an example, lots of attackers playing archers just standing outside the castle and not even trying to move in, therefore having a negligible effect on the round.

Probably still would be better than the current state of affairs, though.
  • IG_Mgt_ryozu
  • ryozu ryozu

Offline Dopey

  • Posts: 11
  • Class: Cavalry
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2016, 07:00:06 PM »
Please at least put some proper limits for cav, don't think anyone likes to play when there are +10 cavs running around on some closed map.

Offline Oliveran

  • Regular Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3227
  • Class: Infantry
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2016, 09:04:23 PM »
Just a few tossed bones:
Bad solutions:
- Change gameplay that creates potential problems (invincibility is a bad solution, for an example)
- Changing too much about the classes (we can't only have 8 total cav on an open map, for an example)
- Enforce decisions on people (making people specifically go to a certain place)

Note that for an example, insta-spawn on flag doesn't force people to immediately jump on the flag, which is an example of a theoretically good idea.

Good solutions:
- Gameplay around a (competitively based) objective without ruining potential dynamic gameplay
- Things that doesn't remove (competitively-based) gameplay (like removing flags in favour of adding another thing)


Please teach me how to block :c

Offline AZAN

  • Posts: 100
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2016, 10:05:45 AM »
I don't think invincibility is necessarily bad, it's a pretty common mechanic in other games. I would definitely have gone with that over slowing the cav spawn down.

@Ryozu, I agree people may ignore it, that's why I suggested the small gold bonus. People are greedy and will often take an easy reward over a more high risk but bigger payout reward, so it would in theory make someone go on the flag which would then pressure others to attack/defend it.

Offline Oliveran

  • Regular Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3227
  • Class: Infantry
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2016, 01:06:10 PM »
The problem wasn't getting out of spawn against enemy cav, it was that cav reached the backend half of the team when moving towards wherever you're going - 13 cav coming to bum down your half of the team makes it so unbelievably stupid that - unless a long, unrealistic amount of like 15 seconds of invincibility is put on - you'd probably die regardless. The cavalry spawn-timer made it so that people who came in at the last second might die, but rather that one than 10-15 others. This was the innate problem of cavalry on most of the current maps in the scene, that's got fairly short spawn-to-spawn distance with no real cover.

Also, it doesn't solve the circle-issue to give people invincibility, which is what this discussion should focus on.



Edit:
We're currently discussing the flag-idea.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 01:11:51 PM by Oliveran »


Please teach me how to block :c

Offline Trebron

  • Posts: 54
Re: You Need to do Something About the Running in Circles
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2016, 09:52:05 PM »
I don't think invincibility is necessarily bad, it's a pretty common mechanic in other games. I would definitely have gone with that over slowing the cav spawn down.

@Ryozu, I agree people may ignore it, that's why I suggested the small gold bonus. People are greedy and will often take an easy reward over a more high risk but bigger payout reward, so it would in theory make someone go on the flag which would then pressure others to attack/defend it.
People don't care about gold, especially about small gold bonus. If you're going to give gold bonus equal to 1 kill for raising up the flag... well if i was playing inf often I'd say this ain't worth my time. I'd go around, tryin to catch some lonely guy in 1v1 2v2 etc - small fights. Most infs don't wanna fight in the big clash because that's were you get couches from behind or random headshots.. very often from friendly archers :D small gold bonus for caring about the flag is nothing compared to possible reward of getting multiple kills if u go somewhere else. Nobody plays for gold - everyone plays for kills.

What to do then? Don't change anything, it's not perfect atm but there'll never be a perfect solution.